Combs Waterkotte is Missouri’s leading criminal defense and DWI law firm, and has handled over 10,000 successful cases. This interview covers multiple commonly asked questions about DWI/DUI charges and how we can help you with your DWI/DUI case in Missouri.
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Don’t “Blow” Your DWI/DUI Case: Key Mistakes to Avoid
Combs Waterkotte, Missouri’s leading DWI/DUI law firm, has handled over 10,000 cases successfully. This ebook guides you through the DWI/DUI defense process and helps you avoid key mistakes.
Interview Transcript
Scott Michael Dunn: Welcome back to Hexxen Studios. We’re here today with Chris Combs [and] Steve Waterkotte from Combs Waterkotte law firm, located in Clayton, Missouri.
We’re visiting again, which we’re excited about, in Hexxen Studios. Hexxen provides all things digital. Your presence on the web is what they do best, and they take your marketing to the Power of X.
So, welcome.
Steve Waterkotte: Thank you.
Scott Michael Dunn: It’s nice to have you guys back.
Chris Combs: Good to see you.
Scott Michael Dunn: I think today we’re going to focus a little more exclusively on the DUI/DWI aspects. And then we’ve got a few subjects that we’re going to cover.
But first things first, what’s going on in your lives now? What’s new? You have something very new, Steve.
Steve Waterkotte: A new child, a baby that’s almost one month old, on the 12th. It’s exciting. On October 12th [we] had our third child. So, hands are full right now.
Scott Michael Dunn: Yes. Juggling three.
Steve Waterkotte: That’s right.
Scott Michael Dunn: It’s easier than four.
Steve Waterkotte: There’s a newborn, seven, and 10 now.
Scott Michael Dunn: And seems like when you get a larger number, they sort of group and manage themselves better.
Steve Waterkotte: Yeah. I got helpers now. So my 10 year old daughter, she’s mother hen. So she helps out quite a bit.
Scott Michael Dunn: Well, congratulations.
Chris Combs: Scarlett is a saint.
You just had a huge win out in Crawford County though, too.
Steve Waterkotte: Yep. We had a case that’s been going on for about a year, which is pretty quick in the justice system to get it to trial. It was a client of mine, a young man, he was 20 years old, charged with seven felony counts in Crawford County. Steelville. We pled him guilty on the Eve or two days before trial.
The prosecutor gave us a real sweetheart deal. We fought the case tooth and nail. He was facing over a hundred years in prison.
Scott Michael Dunn: Oh my gosh.
Steve Waterkotte: Seven felony counts. Three counts of assault first degree. Three counts of armed criminal action. One count unlawful use of a weapon.
Ultimately he pled guilty to a D felony and E felony. Assault in the second degree, a D felony, and unlawful use of a weapon, E felony. We got him SIS probation, meaning obviously no jail time. And then if he successfully completes probation, he will not have a conviction on his record.
Scott Michael Dunn: So we’re gonna pause so everybody can Google what you just said.
Steve Waterkotte: Yes. Caleb Sappington is the defendant. [He]’s a wonderful young man.
Scott Michael Dunn: So this is a big deal, right?
Steve Waterkotte: It was huge. He spent about a week in jail before I got involved in the case. We got him out on a very low bond.
Scott Michael Dunn: Oh, fantastic.
Steve Waterkotte: The circumstance, we asserted a self-defense case from the outset. Just very briefly: A car pulls up as he and a buddy are about to go hunting. So he’s in his camo gear, rifles, his buddy’s there. Like any other day out in the country. Opening of deer season. He was very excited.
An unknown vehicle pulls up into a remote area. This isn’t a neighborhood. You have to be looking for this house to find it. A car full of three people arrived, they’re unknown to my client and his friend. Verbal altercation kind of ensues.
And then this is where the dispute is – the state would agree with all those facts. The dispute was whether or not the three folks in the vehicle pointed a gun at my client. We asserted they pointed a gun, at which point my client fired and hit one of the occupants in the vehicle and she was airlifted to the hospital.
So we asserted a self-defense case from the outset. We took depositions, investigated it thoroughly. We were prepared to go to trial on it. I felt very strongly about a trial putting that in front of 12 jurors in Crawford County. However, that deal was just too good to pass up.
Scott Michael Dunn: Sure.
Chris Combs: I don’t wanna get too far off topic, but I think that brings up something interesting that Steve and I have been talking about lately, which is, the cases we want to try, we don’t ever get to try.
I just had a case recently – and I’m not going to get into the details – I wanted to take it to trial so bad, but my client was looking at 18 years at 85%. I worked it up to where he got probation. The really good cases, you get the good deals. Clients are like, “Do we want to roll the dice at, 18 years, 85%, or [do] we want the first sure thing?”
So Steve and I were talking about it. He was so excited to try that case. But when you get a deal like that, you have to tell your client, “Look.” It’s ultimately their choice.
Steve Waterkotte: It is. That’s the biggest thing is that at the end of the day, it has to be the client’s choice. It is the client’s choice, ethically speaking.
In any event –
Chris Combs: Good win.
Steve Waterkotte: He’s 20 years old. It was too difficult to pass up a probation deal and roll the dice, although we felt very strongly about our case. Think about that. Someone says, “Hey, you plead guilty to these two felonies. You’re not gonna have a conviction on your record,” and out the door you go. Or, do you roll a dice and go in front of a jury? You don’t know what a jury is ever going to do, even though you can feel strongly about the facts of your case, your defenses. That’s a hell of a choice, and I think most people would probably take the sure thing.
Scott Michael Dunn: Benefit value, right? What’s it worth? Is the risk worth [it]?
Steve Waterkotte: That’s right. There’s risk and reward. If they offered us 20 years, that’s a no brainer. Let’s go to trial.
We started with a 15 year plea offer in which the prosecutor said, “We’re not coming off of this.” Well, they came off of it after we worked the case. I took depositions and we had an investigator go to the scene. We pieced it all together. With the “victims,” – I’ll put that in quotations – [and] their criminal history, I felt strongly about the case.
But the client, I think, made the right choice, and we were happy to get that resolved for them.
Scott Michael Dunn: That’s gotta be hard, because the validation of getting to swing the bat, metaphorically.
Chris Combs: As far as trying cases?
Scott Michael Dunn: Yeah. You’re ready. You got all your ducks in a row and you know you’re going to win. You just feel it.
Steve Waterkotte: That’s exactly it.
Scott Michael Dunn: Then you can’t swing the bat. You got to go back to the bench. You’re like, “It’s still a win.”
Steve Waterkotte: That’s exactly it. It is absolutely a win.
My desire, as Chris will tell you, I was chomping at the bit to try this case. In fact, my first court date in circuit court, I set it for a trial, which is almost unheard of.
Chris Combs: That is unheard of.
Steve Waterkotte: I’m ready to roll. The fact that we got this case to trial – it was gonna be tried on 9/11, actually – and the incident happened on November 20th. That’s 10 months. That’s almost unheard of.
Chris Combs: That is unheard of.
Steve Waterkotte: And we pled him guilty on that day and we came back for sentencing on Monday of this past week. So, yeah, as pumped up as I was to try the case, at the end of the day, we got to make sure it’s not about me. It’s not about my ego. It’s not about going to trial, trying to get a trial, notching another trial victory. It’s about what’s best for our client.
I think he made the right choice. It’s tough to pass that up. If it were about me, I’d say let’s try every damn case.
Scott Michael Dunn: It’s important to have humility. And I think in your profession that’s not as commonplace.
Steve Waterkotte: I’d agree.
Scott Michael Dunn: It’s nice that you guys carry that.
Steve Waterkotte: We’ve got to put our wishes and desires second.
Chris Combs: The client’s come first.
Scott Michael Dunn: So what’s new with you? What’s new in your life, Chris?
Chris Combs: Not too much. I’ve got two little kiddos, a couple birthdays coming up. My son will be two December 1st. My daughter will be four on January 10th.
Other than that, just really excited about Combs Waterkotte and where things are headed. I’ve had a great year, a lot of really good results and some really tough cases for very deserving clients.
We’re growing. We’re looking to add another lawyer. Actually put up the ad yesterday and we’re starting to talk and network to find another attorney.
Things are good, sometimes no news is good news. I don’t have a lot of news. Things are good. We’re moving and grooving and excited for the future, which is always good.
Scott Michael Dunn: Awesome.
We’ve got a lineup, a few categories. We’re gonna cover the DUI, kinda the basics, which is a generalization of what it is, what it means, how it works. What it means to be pulled over, when you’re pulled over, which is an important factor, [for] folks to understand that. Costs, affectations [sic] of insurance, professional affectations [sic], employment, certification. Also, my license, my record. Those are big factors too, things to accept when you make a mistake in this situation, but also with hopes that you can find a way through it. Which is what you guys do, which is why we’re here. That’s why we’re talking about it.
So, first question is, basically, What is DUI, DWI? What’s the difference? And how does it work with the Miranda rights? And what does it mean if they’re Mirandized? And their legal blood alcohol consumption levels?
Those are a few topics we can touch on to start.
Chris Combs: Sure. I’m happy to jump into this one first, Steve, if you don’t mind.
Scott Michael Dunn: What is it exactly?
Chris Combs: Sure. DWI, DUI, it’s used interchangeably in Missouri. Except for if you’re charged with DWI by drug intoxication, then that is typically charged as a DWI as opposed to a DUI. But it’s driving while intoxicated or driving under the influence. However they’re pretty much interchangeable in Missouri.
The way the Missouri Department of Revenue code is written and the statute is written, if you blow anything below a .08, including if you have drugs in your system, they can’t take any action against your license. You could have a needle in your arm with heroin, nod off, hit some cars. They’ll charge you with DWI by drug intoxication, but the way the Department of Revenue law and the statutes are written, they can’t take any action against your license.
Scott Michael Dunn: Oh wow.
Chris Combs: Which is interesting.
I think the most interesting thing to talk about, and then I’ll let Steve jump in, is just a general traffic stop.
Everyone has probably been pulled over at one point in time for speeding or rolling through a stop sign. But what people don’t realize is that, every traffic stop should not turn into a search of your car or turn into a DWI investigation.
At least one piece of advice, and then I’ll let you guide me a little bit more on what we want answers to, I can’t tell you how many cases I see, DWI cases, where people – it could be me, it could be you, it could be anyone – have one too many at happy hour, puts them just over .08, they feel fine, but the second you get pulled over and the question is, “Have you had anything to drink?” People try to minimize it, “Yeah, I had one beer.” Boom, that just went from a traffic stop to a DWI investigation.
Then they’re going to ask you, do you want to blow or not? Do you want to get out of the car? Do you want to participate in standard field sobriety tests? The quickest way to turn a traffic stop into a DWI investigation is to make any admission of drinking. Even if it’s a glass of wine and you say you have a few sips, boom, “You want to blow?”
Scott Michael Dunn: So [if] the person that’s alleged to be drinking and driving, if they say they’ve drank [sic] at all, they’re exaggerating. Meaning that they’re exaggerating that they’ve only had a little bit or if they’re had a lot. And how does that work with the truth of all things?
Chris Combs: It doesn’t really matter. Unfortunately, once you make that admission that there’s been any drinking at all they assume impairment. But again, the DWI investigation should be to detect impairment. There has to be reasonable suspicion to turn this into a DWI investigation. But you’re not using these field sobriety tests and the horizontal gaze nystagmus, the eye test, or the one leg stand, or the alphabet. You’re not using that to confirm your suspicions; there has to be a reasonable suspicion there before.
So we do a lot of DWIs. From vehicular homicide down to your first offense standard traffic stop. Serious physical injury. I’ve got a young kid right now [who] hopped on the highway going the wrong way. Bad accident.
Scott Michael Dunn: We talked about suspicion. If they suspect you, what does that mean? How does that work? Can you explain that?
Steve Waterkotte: Once there’s a suspicion, what they’re trying to do is build a case.
Scott Michael Dunn: Where does it begin?
Steve Waterkotte: Vehicle observations. So there’s what we consider three phases of a DWI investigation by law enforcement. Vehicle in motion. That’s swerving. [The] National Highway Safety Traffic Administration list out a number of clues that could be indicative of impairment. Swerving are the most common. Failing to stay in your single lane.
Chris Combs: Lots of high speeding.
Steve Waterkotte: High speedings. And there’s a number of them.
Vehicle in motion is the first phase. Then, the officer’s personal contact with you. Approaching your vehicle, does he detect slurred speech? The odor of alcohol? The inability to follow instructions.
They have these divided attention tasks. You’re listening to the officer and he’s saying, “Do you have your insurance?” That requires you to listen and follow instructions. They’re observing all these things. Does that driver have an inability to follow the instruction? Does that driver have the inability to grab out insurance, go to the wallet to find your ID.
They’re observing all this. Everything that you’re doing, which you don’t even know, from the time they’re observing your vehicle to then your personal contact is what we consider the second phase of a DWI investigation. The things that I just talked about, your speech, your eyes again, the ability or inability to get to items that they’re asking you for. Typically, it’s your license and insurance.
Finally, the third phase is the testing phase, which is standardized field sobriety tests. SFSTs is the acronym that we commonly use. And those are the horizontal gaze nystagmus test, which is the pen or fingertip in front of the eyes.
The walk and turn test, take nine steps down and back. And then the one legged stand test. Those are what we consider standardized by NHTSA. That’s the third phase.
So again, every single step of this process, they are building a case against you. You don’t have any obligation to do any of these things other than to provide your license and insurance as a driver in the state.
Scott Michael Dunn: Can you get into that a little bit?
Chris Combs: We’ve talked about this a little. I’m just gonna jump in quickly and I want to give it back to Steve. But, there are some lawyers – and I think Steve will agree with me – they like to pick apart the walk and turn and what we call the six clues, what [Steve] was talking about, the horizontal gaze and staggeredness and other things they look for per NHTSA.
However, our advice is always the second that an officer believes or says they believe that you are under the influence, or they ask you to blow or anything like that, is one, decline to blow because all you’re doing is giving them more evidence. Two, refuse all standard field sobriety tests. Again, building a case.
I don’t want to overtake Steve, but again, that’s what it is. They’re building a case. So your only obligation there is to give your license and insurance. And we tell everyone [to] be polite, be cooperative. But so many people say, “I had to blow, I had to do this. I had to do.”
You didn’t have to do anything. If I got pulled over and the officer said, “I think that you’re under the influence,” I would say, “All right. There’s nothing to argue about. Take me into custody.”
Steve Waterkotte: Fight it in court.
I had a client that is a friend of mine. He literally did nothing. He gets pulled over. He was polite. “Yes, sir. No, sir.” License.
Outside of that, “Please call my lawyer. I’m not answering where I came from, where I’m from, where I’m going.” “How much did you drink?” Refused all that. [He] was very polite and he knew his rights.
And that’s where it’s important to understand and know your rights.
Chris Combs: In that moment.
Steve Waterkotte: But it takes courage to be able to say that. You have a uniformed officer. That’s asking for things.
Chris Combs: Lights are flashing.
Scott Michael Dunn: It’s sensory overload really.
Steve Waterkotte: Yes, but it is important what he did in that case. I’m like, “This is textbook.” He did everything in that moment. And from the time he was pulled over, again, he was very polite, produced license and insurance. And outside of that, he answered no questions.
Well, guess what? How much evidence did they not obtain because they were unable to do field sobriety tests. As Chris said, that provides them with evidence. They’re scoring you on the horizontal gaze nystagmus test. They’re scoring you on the walk and turn test. They’re scoring you on the one legged stand test.
They had nothing of that nature. He didn’t submit to a portable breath test, what we call a PBT, which they often use at scene. “Would you want to blow into this?” “No sir, you can call my lawyer.”
So again, what are they left with in this particular case? He swerved a little bit? That doesn’t mean you’re drunk, right? People go on their cell phones and mess with the radio, whatever the case may be. Swerving doesn’t mean you’re intoxicated. Now, it gives them a reason to pull you over. But think in that particular case, how much evidence they were unable to obtain.
There’s a reason they’re doing this stuff. They’re doing it to obtain evidence. They’re doing it to build a case against you. In that case, we got the we got that down to reduced down to a careless and imprudent driving.
Chris Combs: Which is a traffic ticket with no alcohol component, no license suspension, nothing like that.
Steve Waterkotte: It’s a game changer. I went in, they cited him for DWI. Like Chris said, “Give it to me and then we’ll find out in court.” And it’s our job once we get our hands on it to pick apart the police report. And, after meeting with [the] prosecutor and pointing out all these things, the prosecutor in this particular case was very reasonable. She understood that case was very weak.
Again, he understood he had these rights. You can say no. But it’s tough. I know it’s easy for us lawyers to say this, but that’s a big takeaway is that.
It’s the same as somebody, “Hey, can I search your car?” No, you can’t. If I were pulled over leaving here and a cop pulled me over and said, “Can I search your car?” I don’t have anything illegal in my car, but I’m gonna say, “No, you cannot search my car,” because that’s my right to do that. It’s my right to say no. Again, [it’s] probably easier for us lawyers to say this because we do this for a living every day, and we read reports every day. But it is important to know your rights, and then to have the courage to assert your right.
Scott Michael Dunn: Sure.
Steve Waterkotte: Like in that particular case I told you, he said, “No, I’m not answering.” And he ensured he did not submit to these tests. They can’t compel you to do that. You can say no.
Scott Michael Dunn: But they can. They compel you to do it.
Steve Waterkotte: They cannot.
Scott Michael Dunn: Well, this is my question. So you say, “No, I would prefer not to take this sobriety test or this hopping and walking.”
Steve Waterkotte: They can’t physically get you out of the car.
Scott Michael Dunn: But if they say, “No, you’re going to do it,” meaning they’re going to assert their command, even though they can’t force you.
Steve Waterkotte: Correct.
Chris Combs: And that’s the importance of knowing your rights.
Steve Waterkotte: And then having the courage to assert them. They phrase it in a way that you don’t think it’s an option.
Scott Michael Dunn: And that’s my point.
Steve Waterkotte: I get it.
Scott Michael Dunn: The fear of being in that car, in the driver’s seat and saying, “Hey, do I disobey this officer of the law?” But you’re not disobeying them.
Steve Waterkotte: No. Like I said, there is a way you can do this and do it cordially, do it politely. It serves no purpose – I say this always – to be a jerk during a traffic stop or any encounter with an officer, it will serve you no purpose.
Chris Combs: [It will] only hurt.
Steve Waterkotte: You can be polite. But take a stand, know your rights, and assert your rights, all at the same time. They’re not mutually exclusive. And again, back to that case, my client was very polite, never got belligerent, never was a jerk to the officer, and simply said, “No, sir.” “Will you do this?” “No.”
Step out of the car, that you probably don’t have a choice, right? Once the suspicion is made, step out of the car. That is a command. He gets out of the car, and outside of that, “Where are you coming from?” “I’m not going to answer that, sir.”
And you almost never see that because people get nervous in the moment. They’re scared. You’re on the side of a road with a uniformed police officer and lights. It’s a scary encounter. Most people get nervous when they get stopped. I don’t care if you have nothing in the car and you barely roll to stop. People get nervous. It’s a police officer. They make the general public nervous.
Scott Michael Dunn: You feel responsible, too. Like you want to prove to them or prove that you’re not –
Steve Waterkotte: That’s it too. “If I do this, I can maybe get myself out of this.”
Chris Combs: And you never are. Once you start participating in standard field sobriety tests, they nitpick it so bad. “Oh, they took a step before I instructed him to do so.” You’re getting arrested if you participate in field sobriety tests. You just are.
Steve Waterkotte: If we conducted one, us three, – none of us have been drinking, right? – and we did this right now, these aren’t normal behaviors. There’s not a person our age, unless you’re some elite athlete that’s doing plyometric training, that is doing one leg stand. How often are you on one leg? You’re not. We’re all getting older.
Chris Combs: Tell me how to go from K to W in the alphabet backwards, right now.
Scott Michael Dunn: I’m not going to do that.
Chris Combs: Those are some of the questions. Count backwards from 77 to 63.
Steve Waterkotte: And stop at a specific thing. Most people have to do the alphabet. They start mouthing it.
Chris Combs: You can’t sing it.
Scott Michael Dunn: I’ll just Google it.
Steve Waterkotte: So my point is, as Chris said, these aren’t normal human behaviors. Again, unless you’re some athlete doing plyometric training on one leg and taking heel to toe steps, which is a balance test, and then a series of small steps after you did your nine, you got to turn a specific way. These are difficult.
Scott Michael Dunn: Just to think a takeaway here is for the clients to realize it’s not fair. It’s not in your favor.
Chris Combs: It isn’t.
Scott Michael Dunn: So don’t do it. For that reason alone, hold your ground and assert your rights.
Chris Combs: That’s right. Absolutely. And I think another thing – we started to brush up against this and maybe we can come back to it later. But, a lot of people are really just in complete utter shock when I tell them police are legally allowed to lie to you in their investigation. And they’re like, “What?” I’m like, “Yes.”
I always use the ridiculous example of you could be in an interview room and they could say, “We’ve got your DNA at the scene,” – and they don’t have your DNA at the scene – to try to elicit a confession. That is all fair game. So applying that to what we’re talking about in the DWI investigation, when you’re saying what you had mentioned, Scott, sometimes it feels like you don’t have a choice, right?
There’s a lot of people who say, “I didn’t have a choice. I had to blow. They said if I didn’t blow, I would lose my license for a year.” It’s simply untrue. Could you lose your license for a year? It’s possible. But, law enforcement are not attorneys. There is due process. So you don’t just lose your license for a year the second you make that decision on scene, there’s due process to fight that. But, again, a lot of people say, “Well if I didn’t blow, I was gonna lose my license for a year.”
Steve Waterkotte: Probably the number one thing we hear.
Chris Combs: Yes. Number one.
Steve Waterkotte: Submit to a breathalyzer. They’ll say, “Yeah, I had no choice.” They’d say, “I’d lose my license.” Could it be possible? Yeah.
Chris Combs: More often than not, you don’t really.
Steve Waterkotte: Particularly on a first offense. And then you get into a whole bunch of things by jurisdiction and so forth.
But yes, they can lie to you. Looping back to what we said, do not submit to them. Again, they’re difficult tests to begin with. They’re not normal tests that any of us do. Now you add alcohol into that mix. Good luck trying to pass it. They’re supposed to be objective criteria, but they’re subjective.
Scott Michael Dunn: If they can lie –
Chris Combs: Scott can’t keep a straight face.
Scott Michael Dunn: It’s already subjective. If they’re gonna lie to you, you’re screwed.
Steve Waterkotte: Think when you submit an essay in school, and you did that to the same two different teachers, professors. You’re not getting the same score back. This isn’t objective. It’s similar to that.
Scott Michael Dunn: I think you’re callous to think that it’s a possibility that much of anything in this life. is objective. Everything you run into. We don’t have to get into the philosophy of all things, but so much is subjective. So that’s really key.
Steve Waterkotte: Moral of the story is don’t submit to the breathalyzer, the portable breath test, and the standardized field sobriety test.
Scott Michael Dunn: So don’t do the tests. Assert your rights.
Chris Combs: Ask for a lawyer. Per NHTSA, the National Highway Safety Transportation manual, they do have to give you 20 minutes to call a lawyer. We beat cases on that issue quite often.
Steve Waterkotte: So when you’re down at the station and they ask you to submit to the breathalyzer, they’re not going to tell you this – again, going back to knowing your rights. Once they ask that, you can say, “I’d like an opportunity to talk to a lawyer.” They are mandated to give you a 20 minute window and an opportunity to call a lawyer.
I’ve been called in the middle of the night before.
Chris Combs: Same. Many times.
Scott Michael Dunn: I’m just killing 20 minutes. I just want to call and say, “Hey.”
Steve Waterkotte: When they call and they say, “Man, I’m in St. Louis County. I’m in the Sunset Hills Police Department,” I go, “Let me ask the questions. I’m going to ask ‘yes and no’s’ to you.”
Because someone is listening, right? You’re in a room, you have officers around in a sally port, in a booking area. And at that point, once I learn of the situation, I say, “Let me ask you the questions.” I say, “Have you been drinking?” “Yes.” That way they’re only answering “yes” or “no”. The only thing an officer can hear on their end is a “yes” [or] “no.”
So then I take over. And almost always, if we’re at this point, I’m saying “Do not submit to a breathalyzer.” They’ve already probably made their decisions obviously on the road because they’re now at the police station. We can’t go back in time regarding the field sobriety test. Then there’s the questions they’ll ask you. And I say, “Don’t answer any of that stuff.”
We’re able to keep the officers or the investigator, whoever it may be, from obtaining some evidence at this point. And it’s been helpful. But again, the officers will never tell you, “Hey, by the way, this is where you can request 20 minutes. Do you want to use that and call a lawyer?”
Scott Michael Dunn: Right. “Can you make my case worse?”
Steve Waterkotte: It goes back to understanding and knowing your rights, which sadly most folks don’t.
Scott Michael Dunn: I didn’t know that.
Steve Waterkotte: And if they do, it’s because they’ve had some run-ins with the law and they’ve learned a little bit along the way. You get clients that might know some stuff.
Scott Michael Dunn: Get really good at the third DUI.
Steve Waterkotte: Yeah, “I remember my first two. I didn’t do this. I was told to do this. Man, I couldn’t remember what to do.”
Scott Michael Dunn: Well this is good. This is good. I think it’s really important to get this information across to everyone that could potentially be in a situation like this.
Chris Combs: Sure. Every traffic stop should not turn into a DWI investigation or search of your vehicle.
Scott Michael Dunn: Assert your rights. I think we’re just going to repeat that over and over.
Now, we move on to the next topic, which is really like costs and insurance. Not that we need to know exactly how much it costs to handle a DUI. But what’s to anticipate, not the legal costs, but the costs of the chain of events that occur from a DUI?
Chris Combs: I would say, costs outside of your legal defense, which of course can vary on who you plan on hiring.
Scott Michael Dunn: That’s all subjective.
Chris Combs: Of course. Yes, you get what you pay for in this business like anything else With us you have a full team behind you. Three, four people, attorneys and whatnot are touching your file, not just one person.
Expenses. Insurance, there’s something called SR-22 insurance. It’s high risk insurance. When I first started doing this, 12 years ago, clients would scream bloody murder about the cost. No one really says anything anymore. I would say that I can’t give you the exact number, but if you had to obtain SR-22 insurance, which that’s of course very case specific, whether or not you have to have that. That’s one cost.
And then there’s some classes that you may or may not have to do. There’s SATOP, Substance Abuse Traffic Offender Program. That’s about $500 all in, depending on which level. There’s a screening process, and then they place you in a certain level class. There’s [the] Victim Impact Panel, which is an online class. It’s like $90.
I don’t know, what would you say, Steve? Outside legal expenses? Maybe you’re looking at another $500? $600?
Steve Waterkotte: More than that.
Chris Combs: $750, maybe?
Steve Waterkotte: Yeah. And it could vary too. The big thing is what number DWI this is.
Chris Combs: Yeah. That is huge.
Steve Waterkotte: Typically you can avoid fines on a first one.
Scott Michael Dunn: You mean succession of how many have you had?
Chris Combs: Whether it’s a first offense.
Steve Waterkotte: If you’re looking at a second, third, again, as Chris said, you’re doing a SATOP, you’re doing an increased level course. It gets more expensive. Several thousand, a couple thousand. Again, there’s a big variance.
I always tell them [that] they’re going to nickel and dime you the whole way. People are amazed that and are like, “I got to pay to do community service?” I don’t know how many people get asked that when you’re giving free work to the community.
Scott Michael Dunn: You got to rent the vest.
Steve Waterkotte: At an animal shelter, Elks Lodge, a church, or whatever. And they’re like, “I’m paying?” Because there’s these administrative fees and so forth, they’ll nickel and dime.
What I always say is, “How valuable is your license?” I’ve never had a client come into my office, ever, and say, “I can afford to lose my license.”
And a lot of people work from home, right? Especially in the wake of COVID and post-COVID. But nobody has ever come into my office and said –
Chris Combs: I don’t care about the license part of the case.
Steve Waterkotte: Yeah. Your license is your livelihood. And even folks that work at home, they still have meetings and kids, picking carpool up, taking kids to sports.
It’s one of our most valuable assets. And for most people, it’s our way to a livelihood. So I say to them, “How valuable is your license?” Again, you get what you pay for.
[There are] a lot of attorneys that dabble in this area. What I mean by dabble in this area, they do a little bit of family law, they do bankruptcy, they could do other areas. But I do traffic tickets and I do DWIs, first time or second, misdemeanor DWIs. Which is scary, because most of us – not most of us, all of us at our firm – routinely we do CLEs each year, where we’re trained the same as the officers training in terms of standardized field sobriety tests. We know what to look for when we’re watching that video. If you’re dabbling in this area, that’s pretty scary. It’d be like me going to venture in and saying, “I’ll handle your bankruptcy.” I don’t do this or your divorce. That’s scary. Divorce, you can end up on the wrong side of that thing and your life be flipped.
One thing when folks come to our office about a DWI, I tell them, and we all do, this is what we do every day, right? We do a ton of DWI.
Chris Combs: I read 100 alcohol influence reports.
Steve Waterkotte: A month.
Chris Combs: And that’s the packet with the pre-filled out with the steps.
Steve Waterkotte: So, first offense, okay, you’re not going to jail. You’re not going to prison.
It’s scary to think that lawyers that don’t do this often, or the clients or the prospective client is selecting a lawyer who doesn’t do this routinely and has multiple areas of law.
At Combs Waterkotte all we do is criminal defense and orders of protection, which is quasi criminal. This is what we do. You wouldn’t come to me for a divorce and I go, “I know a little bit and I can probably get you through this.” Maybe there’s not a lot at stake in terms of assets or whatever. I know I’m not doing as good of a job as somebody who practices in that area every day.
Chris Combs: I would say this is more specific to any other case type, almost, Steve, and correct me if I’m wrong. Because DWIs are so technical and there’s so many things to be looked at.
Steve Waterkotte: You got your license aspect. You have two cases out of the same occurrence. You have criminal, then you have the license aspect as well.
Scott Michael Dunn: I think a good metaphor or an analogy would be like you jump out of an airplane, and then right before you’re ready to jump out, you’re like, “Hey, who packed the parachute?” “My mother-in-law had a friend. He’s done it a couple of times. So we’re pretty sure you’re good to go.” And then they just kick your butt out of the airplane.
Chris Combs: You’re not enjoying yourself.
Scott Michael Dunn: I’m not okay with that.
Steve Waterkotte: Right. It’s not uncommon to get a dozen or so calls or half dozen calls per month. “My friend’s uncle is an attorney and he’s handling this.” Or there’s been times when that friend’s uncle, who’s a lawyer, has reached out to us and we’ve taken over the case because they get in and they go, “Whoa, this is a little bit more than I anticipated.”
Chris Combs: I got a quick, just funny story about that.
I had a friend of mine years ago get a DWI. And said, “Oh, my uncle is an intellectual property, international attorney at Bryan Cave,” which is a very prestigious law firm. Brilliant lawyer, doesn’t do DWIs, but worked out a pretty good deal on the criminal side of the case.
He calls me up and he goes, “Yeah, that case I handled, she just got pulled over and she got ticketed for driving while revoked.” And I said, “Well, what did you do on the license side of the case?” He goes, “License side of the case?” I said, “Yeah, there’s a 15-day time window where you have to file X, Y, and Z with the Missouri Department of Revenue.”
Here’s a brilliant lawyer, but if you don’t do it every day, there’s just so many things you can miss.
Steve Waterkotte: Exhibit A. That’s exhibit A why when you’re charged with a crime, charged with DWI, you would go to somebody who handles this exclusively or that is 95% of our practice.
Again, when you’re selecting a doctor, you’re going to find somebody that specializes. You’re having a surgery done, what are you going to do? You’re not going to a general practitioner and saying, “Hey, I need a hip replacement or knee replacement or open heart surgery.” You’re finding a specialist that does this every single day, right?
It’s no different in the law or anything for that matter in life. You’re going to find somebody who specializes. When I have somebody build a deck or a patio at my house I’m going to find somebody that does this every day. It’s no different than anything in life.
So it’s important that when you go in there and – we have something on our website for folks, what things to look at when you’re hiring, what questions to ask, how to hire an attorney for your case. We provide information like that, what questions to ask.
It’s almost the prospective client should be interviewing the attorney. How much does this make up of your practice? What other areas of law do you do besides criminal? How much is made up of DWI? All those things should be asked by the prospective client.
If they’re doing their homework and they’re diligent –and I would tell any of my family or friends or loved ones – you’re interviewing them. Aand again, that goes [for] every area of law. If you’re getting a divorce, or you’re charged with a serious crime, you go in and interview the attorney or the firm to get a feel for, “Is this the right firm?” You’re going to find somebody, you want to find somebody that specializes in this area of law.
Scott Michael Dunn: I think this goes back to, as well, asserting your rights to a police officer. And I think that there’s a level of ignorance, which combines with fear. When you take those two and blend them together, you just take for granted whoever you talk to, whoever speaks to you, whatever they tell you is the letter of whatever law you are unfamiliar with, or the letter of any process through whatever a police officer might do.
You just believe them.
Chris Combs: We see all walks of life with DWIs, that’s another thing. Doctors, everyone, anyone can get a DWI. As I mentioned earlier, you have one too many at happy hour.
Scott Michael Dunn: You don’t keep track.
Chris Combs: That’s why it’s so important.
Scott Michael Dunn: You’re talking one drink in an hour.
Steve Waterkotte: It’s a crime that spans all walks of life, all demographics, all races. We’ve all had a drink and got behind a wheel, right? And that’s not against the law, by the way, it’s against the law to be intoxicated. But I’ve done that and most people probably have at one time or another if they’re being honest.
You want to go to somebody that does this every day, that knows this stuff, that can guide you through the process.
Scott Michael Dunn: I agree. And the variable in it, I think, is that you, the client, you deserve it, right? They deserve a proper defense. And they deserve to exercise their rights, whatever they may be. In the car, out of the car, no matter what. So you deserve it.
I think that’s just what you guys have been trying to say. Interview an attorney because you deserve a proper defense. Don’t let the police officer bully you into doing something because you deserve to not have to do it. You don’t have to.
Steve Waterkotte: The problem is that no one ever thinks, “Hey, I’m going to be in trouble, so I better understand and learn my rights.”
We just assume that we’re never going to be in that position, right? Nobody sits there and goes, “Well. I could be jammed up at some point. I could be on the side of a road or highway at some point. I better start studying up and figuring out what my rights are.” Nobody preemptively or plans to be in trouble.
Where we have some folks that know some stuff or might know their rights is because they’ve been in trouble and learned some stuff along the way. But again, nobody goes, “Hey, I’m going to be jammed up. I better know my Fourth Amendment rights or my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent or those kind of things. No one plans to be in trouble.
Scott Michael Dunn: No.
Steve Waterkotte: That’s where you got to find an attorney that knows what they’re doing, that knows how to guide you in the process. Too many attorneys, particularly DWIs, it’s get the case in, they get a plea offer, and let’s plea it out.
They might not even review the police report. I’ve taken over files for lawyers where they haven’t even requested the body cam or the dash cam. How can somebody give intelligent advice to a client when they haven’t watched the video?
I don’t take anything a police officer says at face value. I never will and never have. So their report, again, subjective, it’s their interpretation of what they observed, right? Our best way to figure out what happened is a video. And there’s attorneys that we’ve taken over files and I’ve taken over a file and requested their file from them and they don’t have the CD in there of the dash cam or the body cam.
I’m not taking that police officer’s word, the police report, because again that’s their interpretation of what they observed. Let me watch the video. Again, you get what you pay for. You need to find somebody that specializes in this area.
And it’s scary to think that there’s folks that are being pled out guilty, and these stones haven’t even been unturned in terms of their investigation, to get to the point of the finish line of the plea, or advising a client, whether at trial or negotiating with the prosecutor.
I’ll never just simply rely on the report. Again, that’s an officer’s subjective interpretation of what he or she observed. Let me watch that video. Let me see if it matches up, because I’ll tell you this, you will be surprised by how often you’re reading the report and simultaneously watching the video and they’re going, “He stumbled getting out of the car.” Well, I just watched it five, six times in slo-mo and zoomed in and whatever. That guy never stumbled.
Chris Combs: As sure as footage can be.
Steve Waterkotte: “He mumbled or he slurred speech.” And I watch the video. There’s many times it’s true. But then again, you’d be surprised by how many times it does not match the report. I thought he was crystal clear or she was crystal clear in the limited words that she conveyed to the officer.
So again, don’t take the report at face value. It entails a thorough investigation, which, that’s what we provide when we have a DWI client.
Scott Michael Dunn: Sure. And they are suspicious. It’s their goal. When they pull you over to fulfill that suspicion.
Chris Combs: Sure.
Scott Michael Dunn: They think you swerved a little bit. So now they’re immediately thinking, “Oh, he’s been drinking. She’s been drinking.” So that their intention is to lock you up with a DUI or DWI.
Steve Waterkotte: That’s correct. And they’re approaching the vehicle, especially late at night, you swore maybe you’re shooting a text off or finding something in your vehicle. They’re going to approach a vehicle with that in mind, that this is a potential DWI. And that’s what I’m looking for.
Scott Michael Dunn: And what we’re saying to them, what you guys are saying to them is that you keep that in mind. Don’t do the tests. Don’t answer the questions. Allow them to take you into custody. Allow due process to protect you, because as citizens where we have rights and we don’t have to do these things right. Get caught up in some legal situation that just gets worse. And then again, as you guys brought up, don’t allow your future to be handled by someone that you’re unsure can protect it.
Steve Waterkotte: Bingo.
Scott Michael Dunn: That’s terrifying.
Chris Combs: Absolutely.
Scott Michael Dunn: But people do it all the time, which is why you guys are here. This is why we’re doing this. You can’t prepare. Legal situations often don’t happen in retrospect. “Oops,” doesn’t always work out. It’s like, “I got to figure out what to do about this problem that I’ve caused. I didn’t realize, or coulda woulda shoulda.”
Steve Waterkotte: We’re approaching holiday seasons. You know what that means.
Chris Combs: A lot of parties.
Scott Michael Dunn: But we’re not promoting it.
Chris Combs: Of course, we’re not.
Steve Waterkotte: We don’t promote crime. But no matter how much we advocate not to burglarize and rob people or whatever, sell drugs, it’s going to happen, right? It’s inevitable to happen.
Scott Michael Dunn: And if a cop thinks that you’ve been drinking –
Steve Waterkotte: You have rights and we are there to protect those rights, stand up for those rights and assert them.
Scott Michael Dunn: Just cause they think you are, doesn’t mean you are.
Steve Waterkotte: Right. There’s holiday parties. Everybody has a cocktail. We have Uber and Lyft and all that now, and that’s been great, obviously. It makes it so easy to not drink and drive. But nonetheless, thousands and thousands of people will do it or have a few, or maybe you don’t think you’re impaired, but it doesn’t take much.
As we approach that holiday season too, know your rights. Because this is the time where you’re going to see an increase in traffic stops in DWI.
Scott Michael Dunn: They’re looking for you, just like late at night.
Chris Combs: One thing Steve touched on – I don’t want to beat a dead horse here – going along with knowing your rights and refusing, and understanding that you can refuse, is that every little thing that officer is trying to build a case.
I think that’s something that really needs to be taken home or hit home, it’s worth highlighting. Like Steve said, you reach for your license, they’re gonna note that in the report, fumbled around looking. Every little thing you do is going to be so. Why would you give them more and more?
Scott Michael Dunn: I think that was what we brought up earlier. What I said as someone that would just be driving, I’m not an attorney. So my first thought is I need to prove them wrong.
Chris Combs: Of course. That’s most people’s.
Steve Waterkotte: I can get myself out of this.
Scott Michael Dunn: I don’t feel like I’m drunk. I didn’t drink that much. Just cause I swerve doesn’t mean that – No, let me defend myself with the officer and tell them everything that I did. And they’re just compiling all of that to use it against you.
Chris Combs: The officer is just making an arresting decision. And then it goes to a prosecutor who makes a charging decision. As long as a law enforcement officer thinks they have enough, which could be a faint odor of alcohol. Okay, sure. That doesn’t mean that you’re necessarily impaired. But that could end up in a DWI arrest. And you have to understand that – like you said, know your rights.
Scott Michael Dunn: Use a professional.
Steve Waterkotte: Call Combs Waterkotte.
Scott Michael Dunn: To defend you.
Steve Waterkotte: 24/7.
Scott Michael Dunn: Don’t defend yourself in this situation. Use a professional. Use Combs Waterkotte. Use a professional to defend you in this situation.
Chris Combs: You’re never going to prove yourself innocent. I can tell you I’ve had DWIs where I get the video, and I’m talking a woman in high heels, just aces the walk and turn and the one leg stand. And still charged with DWI.
But then you take it to a prosecutor and you’re like, “Look at this video.” You know what I mean? But still arrested. So what does that tell you? Why would you participate in those?
Scott Michael Dunn: I’m not going to ever. Just from talking to you guys now. I would have before this conversation. I would have. I’ll be honest. I would get out. I would do the eye, the movement. I would do the walk.
Chris Combs: If they say, “Scott, you don’t blow in this machine your license is gone for a year.”
Scott Michael Dunn: Okay, I’ll blow in it.
Steve Waterkotte: Because you’re scared.
Scott Michael Dunn: I’m scared. I don’t know what to do.
Chris Combs: That’s the big problem. Lack of knowledge. You didn’t know. You don’t know what you don’t know.
Scott Michael Dunn: No, I didn’t. I’m terrified that this guy with a badge tells me what to do. That’s just what I feel like I’m supposed to do. And we don’t have to, which is phenomenal in that situation.
Just understanding that one aspect is a big part of being prepared. Being prepared to call you guys or being prepared on what to expect. Knowing that you’re putting yourself in a better position in the end by not making bad decisions, following protocol that isn’t subjective protocol.
If you need Missouri’s leading criminal defense team to defend your rights and freedom, speak to a criminal defense and DWI/DUI attorney today at (314) 900-HELP or contact us online for a free case review.
